Warning: SPOILERS for Thunderbolts*.

Thunderbolts* is the 36th film in the Marvel Cinematic Universe, but in many ways feels like a fresh start for Marvel Studios. Featuring character-focused drama and a roster of decidedly non-super antiheroes, Thunderbolts* brings a decidedly indie energy that elevates its emotional moments to heights rarely seen in the MCU. Even as director Jake Schreier accomplished this, however, he firmly placed the movie in MCU canon with a game-changing post-credits scene and the last-minute reveal that the Thunderbolts were actually the New Avengers.

Writers Eric Pearson and Joanna Calo, however, were the ones who gave Schreier the foundation upon which he built his MCU entry. Thunderbolts* is Calo’s first Marvel movie, but the writer and producer has worked on a number of prestigious and beloved TV shows including Hacks, BoJack Horseman, The Bear, and Beef. Pearson, on the other hand, is a veteran of the studio, having written Thor: Ragnarok, Black Widow, and ABC’s Agent Carter. Pearson is also attached to the MCU’s troubled Blade movie.

ScreenRant’s Joe Deckelmeier spoke with Eric Pearson about the twists and turns that brought Thunderbolts* to the screen. Pearson candidly spoke about earlier drafts of the film, revealing how much things changed from conception to the final product. The writer also explained how the Thunderbolts became the New Avengers, and more.

Thunderbolts* Had A Very Different Original Structure

“It Was Set Up A Little Bit More Like A Team Building Weekend”

Early drafts of Thunderbolts* were said to have more in common with Die Hard than audiences might expect. When asked about that, writer Eric Pearson said “it’s just that we were in Vault Level 5 for a lot longer. There were a few more obstacles; it was set up a little bit more like a team building weekend, when corporations go and do trust falls and rope courses. It just took a little bit longer to get out there, and they didn’t really fully get out until probably the end of Act 2.”

Pearson’s directive, he revealed, was that “‘It’s got to feel smaller, more contained, more grounded.’” That’s why the writer “threw the Die Hard word out there, which is always a dangerous pitch to make,” but, in his words, “it was like, ‘Let’s keep it contained, and then our third act will be somewhere else.’”

As the process went along, “It became a much more of like, ‘Let’s get them out by the midpoint,’” Pearson shared, continuing, “When Jake came on, he wanted to bring that moment up a little bit more and have a couple of road-trippy moments. There was a point where the road trip was way too long as well. There were some ridiculous ideas.”

Although Pearson reveals Jake Schreier’s extended road trip idea was likely never sH๏τ, he did say “There was one version where they drove to take cover at a house, and it was the morning after some high school kid had thrown a party. He was just there, very hungover, and was kind of their buddy for a second because he had trashed his house and was just waiting to get in trouble. That was where Bucky intercepted them.”

“It was completely unnecessary because, at that point in the movie, you really want to gain momentum, and we were sitting and hanging out with this random kid for 5 pages.”

Why The MCU Thunderbolts* Lineup Is Different From The Comics

Baron Zemo’s Absence Explained

Just as the Marvel Cinematic Universe’s original Avengers lineup didn’t include founding member Ant-Man, the MCU’s Thunderbolts left out Baron Helmut Zemo who, in the comics, is known for leading the group. The original lineup also included more villainous characters than who moviegoers eventually saw “It was always the plan, right from the beginning” to reinvent the concept for the MCU, Pearson shared, before explaining an uncomfortably inevitable comparison.

“I said, ‘They’ve done two Suicide Squad movies. They’ve done The Dirty Dozen. That story’s been told a lot,’” Pearson said, continuing, “We’ve got to change it. People still say, ‘This is just Marvel’s Suicide Squad’, even though we changed it. But I was very much like, ‘We can’t just do “authority figure takes criminals/villains and forces them to do something with the threat of violence,”’ [and] as I was looking at our roster, I was like, ‘They’re not villains. They’re losers.’”

The movie, then, was influenced by Die Hard and The Breakfast Club in the sense that Pearson’s idea was, “‘Let’s keep them all in this one place where they meet each other in a very antagonistic way, and let’s force them to slowly and begrudgingly realize how similar they are and how much help their companionship can give each other.’”

“The big line in my pitch was, ‘We’re the evidence, and this is the shredder.’”

Pearson did admit that Baron Zemo made an appearance in the script at some point, though he did say “To be fair, there was a version where we stopped at a kid’s house who had just thrown a high school party.” But Zemo’s place in the script would likely have been a tag in which “It was revealed that Baron Zemo was pulling some strings from prison.”

The writer elaborated, saying, “I might be just inventing things now, but I feel like there might’ve been a version where a tag where Zemo had broken out and swapped places with someone– maybe Valentina’s ᴀssistant–and he was working with a widow’s mask. But I think those ideas lived for one iteration and then died.”

Ultimately, Zemo didn’t fit the narrative the writers were chasing: “He’s part of putting them together, and we negated the need for that with our very premise.” Although Pearson admitted that “‘If there’s a way to cleverly include Baron Zemo in this, he absolutely should be there,’’ the story the writers wanted to write had “all of these people find their way through Yelena.” Plus, he said, “We were introducing Bob as well, so he just didn’t fit.”

Pearson Reflects On Not Getting Man-Thing In The Script

“Now I’m Thinking, ‘Well, Maybe We Could Have”

Thunderbolts* director Jake Schreier publicly stated that he had hoped to include Man-Thing, featured in the 2022 Marvel special Werewolf by Night, into the movie. “We never wrote it, because we never figured out a way [it could work],” Pearson said on the subject. “We [had] a couple days where we talked for part of the day and said, ‘All right, enough Man-Thing, let’s focus on what we’ve got. We’ll talk about Man-Thing more tomorrow.’ And there was just never a version where it felt like, ‘Naturally, the giant moss and mud monster is going to be part of this.’”

The writer continued to share that there was “the idea of Valentina controlling him,” which didn’t feel like a fit at the time. “Now, I’m thinking there could have been a way,” Pearson admitted, saying, “It’s so funny, with the benefit of distance. In the moment, I was like, ‘This is impossible,’ and now I’m thinking, ‘Well, maybe we could have.’”

Kevin Feige Was Behind Bucky’s Run For Congress

“I Think That Was A Kevin Thing”

Bucky Barnes was very briefly seen in Captain America: Brave New World, which introduced the former Winter Soldier’s new job as a United States Congressperson. “I think that was a Kevin thing,” Pearson shared–although Bucky was always going to be on Capitol Hill in the movie. “In the last version that I did, he was sort of a lobbyist. He was in all the same scenes, but it was a little bit more humiliating. It was the same way you’d hire an old baseball player to shake hands at a car wash.”

“He was being used by politicians to just stand there and propagandize Avenger stuff, and then you’re like, ‘Oh, wow. Bucky’s fallen on hard times,’” Pearson said, adding, “But then you realize, as he speaks to Senator Gary, that he’s actually doing this as a cover to investigate Val, who he believes is doing all this stuff. I think the congressman thing came from Kevin, and I think that decision was made after me.”

How Thunderbolts*’ Emotional Climax Got Sucked Into The Void

Originally, A Different Character Was At The Center Of The Moment

The emotional climax of Thunderbolts* saw the team rushing to prove to Bob that he is loved, and that the emptiness of The Void isn’t the truth of his existence. When asked if that was specifically meant to represent depression, Pearson said, “That’s hard to answer, because I wasn’t really thinking about theme in the moment.”

In fact, the writer shared, “The original drafts of this had John Walker as the punching villain at the end. The idea was that part of Val’s manipulation was that she had told him that his serum was wearing off, and she was doing these medications to keep him going. In reality, he was a time bomb; a Hulk kind of thing. There was going to be a bit of a ‘Sun’s getting real low’ moment.” But, Pearson shared, “From the beginning of this, it was like, ‘I want to end our third act fight with a hug.’”

“That version was kind of fun, but ultimately didn’t work and didn’t feel right tone-wise,” Pearson shared. “I had already layered in the whole Breakfast Club thing, so I was like, ‘I want someone that they can’t beat in a punching fight and that they have to connect to in an emotional way.’”

Enter Sentry. “In the comics, it’s like the Golden God of Good vs. pure evil,” Pearson said about the character, “but I was like, ‘What if it’s heroic ambition and self-esteem versus self-loathing and depression and loneliness?’”

“He’s basically the entire journey for our heroes rolled into one enтιтy.”

Where Were New York’s Other Heroes?

Pearson Gives A Reason Why They Didn’t Show Up

Over the years, Marvel has drastically increased its number of New York-based superheroes, which has led audience members to wonder why Daredevil, Spider-Man, and others didn’t rush to the Avengers Tower to help fight The Void. “I’m going to take the fifth on that one,” Pearson said on the subject. “I haven’t looked at the map closely enough of where it went. I’m not sure if it went to Bleecker Street yet. But I also think that the time of it is happening so much faster than you expect. That expansion and retraction of time is different.”

“As we say in Thor: Ragnarok,” Pearson added, “‘Time works real different around here.’ When you’re in the Void Space, who knows how long it’s been? Maybe it’s been one second.”

The New Avengers Were Always The Endgame

No Surprise, It “Was Kevin’s Idea”

Days after its release, the marketing for Thunderbolts* has begun revealing the movie’s surprise ending–that the Thunderbolts are actually the MCU’s New Avengers. “The New Avengers thing was Kevin’s idea when I first brought them this project,” Pearson shared. “It was really just the skeleton of the movie that you see,” he continued, “and when I got to the end, I always had that moment with Yelena right behind Valentina, saying, ‘You work for us now.’”

Apparently, that change was basically the only big change the studio suggested: “I’ve done a lot of pitching at Marvel, and you get a lot of notes. But all Kevin said was, ‘I think that they should be the New Avengers. I think she should announce them as the New Avengers.’ I thought, ‘Man, if that’s the only note I’m getting from this whole thing, take the money and run. Get out of here. This is great.’”

“I didn’t know what the plan was for that, but that’s not my job … that’s another guy’s problem down the line”

Funny enough, Pearson relayed that “There was probably an hour-long discussion about capital N vs. lowercase n. ‘Are they Avengers that are new, or are they the New Avengers?’ And I think that ultimately we decided on the capital N New.”

The Thunderbolts* & Fantastic Four Connection, Explained

Pearson Worked On Both Films

The Thunderbolts* second post-credit sequence featured a thrilling cameo–and we’re not talking about the Rick Rubin reference that is the book Bob is reading (The Creative Act–check it out). The tag brought the Fantastic Four into the primary MCU dimension in a scene that was directed by none other than the Russo brothers. “I can’t take credit for that one,” Pearson said.

He shared more: “I’m very jealous of it because it’s a very great tag. I believe that Joanna Calo wrote that. What I love about it [is that] Thunderbolts is very much a vibe movie–you get into the feeling of these characters, who they are, and what it means for them to be together–and that tag does it perfectly … and setting up immediately that they’re not respected. ‘Avengerz’ is funny.”

Check out our other Thunderbolts* interviews:

• Composers Son Lux
• Thunderbolts* red carpet
• Florence Pugh
• Jake Schreier
• Julia Louis-Dreyfus & Geraldine Viswanathan
• Wyatt Russell & David Harbour
• Lewis Pullman & Hannah John-Kamen

Thunderbolts* is in theaters now.